Same sex marriage discussion wikipedia. Talk:Same-sex marriage/Archive 17.



Same sex marriage discussion wikipedia

Same sex marriage discussion wikipedia

The 'default' in our culture being the one-man—one-woman marriage is specified next, in subsense a. I use 'recognize' here to also suggest that outside of these areas these unions are not recognized as marriages and in other places perhaps not recognized at all. Correction, based on the article the marriages were sometimes illegalized on religious grounds, but the charges of adultery or fornication seem to have been based on the fact that such couples were not illegally married and as such the legal charge of adultery or fornication could be made if no direct punishment to was applied for the marriages.

This is a purely legal mater, does not seem to really question the institutional definition of marriage. As for what has been 'historically' considered marriage, see the History section of same-sex marriage.

While this article does refer a few historical apparent cases of same sex "marriage" they clearly not the norm for humanity as a whole and even then most of the examples given seem to based on misinterpretations and some clearly are.

There are places where marriage is not limited to man and woman, husband and wife, and the definition has to recognize this. It is recognized in subsense d and should be relegated to that level because it it is clearly a minority position.

In fact there are far more places in the world where homosexuality is illegal than that recognize same sex "marriage. So the human norm does limit marriage to a man and woman, as husband and wife and this fact requires that it be stated as the primary definition. The fact that a minority wants it to be otherwise does not entitl them to dictate the definition.

In this case same sex "marriage" activists want dictionaries to define marriage in a manner freindly to their agenda, because of this fact substituting "persons" for "a man and a woman, as husband and wife" is taking the pro same sex "marriage" side and as such it is POV. The 'default' in our culture being the one-man one-woman marriage is specified next, in subsense a.

The problem with this argument is that marriage between a man and woman, as husband and wife is the universal default, not just the default in our culture. Polygyny and polyandry are cases where a person has multiple marriages, but each to a different person. In polygyny the man is married to multiple women, but they are not married to each other, but only to the man and vise versa with polyandry. So nether polygyny nor polyandry violate the union between a man and a woman concept, being actually cases of multiple unions.

As such even in cultures that allow multiple marriages the default definition of "a marriage" is still between a man and woman, as husband and wife. Furthermore defining marriage as between a man and woman is based on the laws of nature. Human reproduction involves a union between a man and woman. Our physiology is designed for this process, as such any thing else is going against the laws of nature.

By the way your wording of subsense d is better than mine so lets keep it, but the main sence should reflect the human cultural and bilolgical norm and not the desiers of an activist minority as such it should read: It is untenable for a subsense to be contrary to its supersense, as you are writing it. The supersense must be phrased as generally as the word is applied: If they can not be considered a separate sense of the word and can not be a subsense of the legitimate primary sense then it must be eliminated.

The fact is that defining marriage as: So if same-sex or group "marriage" can not be either a separate sense or a subsense of with the above as its supersense, then making the changes needed to include them is taking the pro same sex "marriage" side and as such it is POV. Therefor unless there is a way to include a reference to same-sex or group "marriage" with out changing the primary supersense to accommodate them, they should not be included.

I have tried to find a way to be accommodate to these minority views but you seem determined to refuse any such effort and insist on pushing the POV of same sex "marriage" activists.

If one day this view becomes the majority then changing the definition would be appropriate, but since part of the same sex "marriage" agenda is trying to get dictionaries to define marriage in a manner friendly to that agenda, your changes are taking the pro same sex "marriage" side and as such it is POV. In fact, the most NPOV way out I can see at the moment would be to remove any mention of who may participate in a marriage.

My comment was not that same-sex marriage can't be a subsense of "marriage" proper, but that it wasn't a subsense of "marriage" as you were defining it. But I looked over the definition after I posted my comment, and I find that those weren't really subsenses as I thought they were, but really explanatory notes, and that's why I reformatted the definition the way I did.

If the "absolute" definition of marriage, the supersense as it were, included in itself some concept of a man and a woman, same-sex couples wouldn't campaign to be eligible for marriage any more than they would campaign to be recognized as a pair of scissors: The fact that same-sex couples find it reasonable to campaign for eligibility for marriage, and that it is being granted to them in places, and that people speaking English can still refer to these unions with the word "marriage"—and in the same sense, e.

John and Jack's marriage is stronger than Jeff and Jane's—indicates that this basic sense of the word marriage does not encode any concept of one man and one woman being participants, and that the idea that it might do so is merely an extraneous accretion inherited from traditions of the institution of marriage and these "norms" you keep going on about: A good definition must be predictive: Plato 's example was defining a human as "a featherless biped" — it may sound reasonable, and apply generally, but the word 'human' is nevertheless applied to one-legged or otherwise non-bipedal people and incidentally not applied to, say, featherless bipedal dinosaurs ; thus it is a bad definition.

In the same wise your definition of marriage as being between a man and a woman as husband and wife can't account for the word marriage being applied outside of this definition, which is why I had participants heteromonogamous, polygamous, homomonogamous, and otherwise listed in, again, an explanatory way: As lexicographers we abserve and report; we don't prescribe.

The traditional definition is still historically accurate, and is still legal in a great many countries, so it needs to be shown.

The expansion of the definition to include same-sex relations is part of the law in some countries. At least four now legally recognize same-sex marriages, so that definition also needs to be included. I haven't yet considered the various polygamal permutations. For a lexicographer including one definition does not imply that you must exclude the other. The number has been giving Western traditional marriage special prominence even over the otherwise uncontested polygamous marriage and increasingly wants to remove any acknowledgment of and even logically nullify [vide supra] the existence of nontraditional marriages.

Since we can't seem to satisfactorily explain the institution of marriage without verging on becoming encyclopedic, I figured it might be better to let the encyclopedia itself do the being encylopedic, and put a prominent reference to the article there.

It totally avoids this a extremely contentious issue with nether side getting its way. Absolutely nothing could be more NPOV. Given the nature and strong passions of this debate is probably the only way to end this battle once and for all. The root problem is that both sides have a mutually contradictory notion of what marriage and there is no practical way of mentioning both in a mutually agreeable way, as such this is a perfect solution.

By the way the name is Mr Charles Creager Jr. I want you to know that I was not trying to hide my identity. I just did not see the since registering over a single word. This doesn't solve anything because it has created a circular definition. If Charles is still around he might want to check them for POV issues. Presumably added by someone between your comment and mine. Marriage is not always entered into voluntarily.

Marriage is not always entered into for life. Having "the union of two persons of the same sex" as a sense implies there is somewhere that marriage means only "the union of two persons of the same sex". This is not the case: I'm not all that sure what "A union that legitimizes sexual and intimate relations between two or more than two partners" is talking about If so, my overarching sense which includes more than two people, and then has 'two people' as a subsense is a better way of handling that.

I think they're all descriptive: I can find citations of "marriage" as a union one or more parties were forced into, and I can find citations of marriage of a union that has ended while its former members still live. I don't think citations can be found in which "marriage" is a term meaning "a union of two people of the same sex" that cannot also be applied to "a union of any two people". Citations can clearly be found in which marriage is "a union of any two people". Some people have open marriages, but an open marriage is still a marriage.

Consider a married couple that are swingers or polyamorists - their marriage is not "to the exclusion of all others", but it is still a marriage. Maybe that clause should be deleted, or changed to something like "usually to the exclusion of all others" My friend and I may unite together in a business partnership, and we could even add a clause to the contract prohibiting us from entering into similar business partnerships with others.

That would be "The union of two or sometimes more people, to the exclusion of all others", but no one would call that a marriage. We should clarify that the "union" specifically involves a sexual element, a romantic element, an element of cohabitation, an element of mingling of personal finances and assets, the shared raising of children.

I'm not sure any one of these is essential to marriage, but a union which lacks all of these elements would not be called a marriage or it would be called a marriage of convenience.

The discussion also remains in the BP archives. The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary: This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions. See this article from the 3 December NY Times for shocking revelations on press coverage of dictionary goings-on.

But while pretending to follow those laws, the definitions ignore the facts that such laws sometimes prohibit the marriage of first cousins sometimes not , and usually or perhaps always have age prohibitions as well. Also, the main meaning of definition 2 allows more than two people, but the sub-definitions do not, which seems to be a contradiction. How is that contradictory? Because the reader is left wondering what happened to three or more people in the sub-senses. If the meanings of the sub-senses depend on the jurisdictions, the reader can only scratch their head, wondering why three or more people is also not dependent on the jurisdiction.

Compare " war ", where the general sense "a conflict, or anything resembling a conflict" narrows to "a campaign", or " god ", where "a deity" narrows to "a male deity".

But with marriage, I'm left wondering what happened to multiple people and the "usually to the exception of all others" parts. Female deities are in sub-senses 1 and 3. Sub-sense 2 simply points out that there is a super-specific meaning of male deity. In the case of marriage, though, the reader is left clueless on marriages with multiple people and the "usually to the exception of all others" part.

No, citations which use "marriage" to refer to the union of multiple people or to the union between people who agree to have an open relationship, etc, are covered by the broad sense. Many people also use the term only with one of two "super-specific meaning"s, to use your phrase, so those are also spelt out the entry.

All citations of the narrow senses are by definition also covered by the broad sense, though. Or do you disagree that "unions of two people" are a subset of "unions of two or more people"?

As I commented below, the "one man, one woman" sense should be a sub-sub-sense of the "any two people" sense if we want to be really logical, but the current state of things is OK, like the current state of " god ". Or is it that you disagree with the idea that if one sense refers to a subset of what another sense refers to, the one should be formatted as a subsense of the other?

Compare " gook " and " tupelo " which I also formatted: Subsenses don't necessarily have to have an "is a" relationship with the parent sense. Also, what do you mean by more than two people? If you are talking about polygamy, polygamy is covered by the "union of two people" sense because it is just a set of unions-of-two-people where one person in each union-of-two-people happens to be the same person, as evidenced by the fact that there is usually a separate wedding for each union-of-two-people.

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Same sex marriage discussion wikipedia

The 'default' in our culture being the one-man—one-woman marriage is specified next, in subsense a. I use 'recognize' here to also suggest that outside of these areas these unions are not recognized as marriages and in other places perhaps not recognized at all.

Correction, based on the article the marriages were sometimes illegalized on religious grounds, but the charges of adultery or fornication seem to have been based on the fact that such couples were not illegally married and as such the legal charge of adultery or fornication could be made if no direct punishment to was applied for the marriages.

This is a purely legal mater, does not seem to really question the institutional definition of marriage. As for what has been 'historically' considered marriage, see the History section of same-sex marriage. While this article does refer a few historical apparent cases of same sex "marriage" they clearly not the norm for humanity as a whole and even then most of the examples given seem to based on misinterpretations and some clearly are.

There are places where marriage is not limited to man and woman, husband and wife, and the definition has to recognize this. It is recognized in subsense d and should be relegated to that level because it it is clearly a minority position.

In fact there are far more places in the world where homosexuality is illegal than that recognize same sex "marriage. So the human norm does limit marriage to a man and woman, as husband and wife and this fact requires that it be stated as the primary definition.

The fact that a minority wants it to be otherwise does not entitl them to dictate the definition. In this case same sex "marriage" activists want dictionaries to define marriage in a manner freindly to their agenda, because of this fact substituting "persons" for "a man and a woman, as husband and wife" is taking the pro same sex "marriage" side and as such it is POV.

The 'default' in our culture being the one-man one-woman marriage is specified next, in subsense a. The problem with this argument is that marriage between a man and woman, as husband and wife is the universal default, not just the default in our culture.

Polygyny and polyandry are cases where a person has multiple marriages, but each to a different person. In polygyny the man is married to multiple women, but they are not married to each other, but only to the man and vise versa with polyandry.

So nether polygyny nor polyandry violate the union between a man and a woman concept, being actually cases of multiple unions.

As such even in cultures that allow multiple marriages the default definition of "a marriage" is still between a man and woman, as husband and wife.

Furthermore defining marriage as between a man and woman is based on the laws of nature. Human reproduction involves a union between a man and woman. Our physiology is designed for this process, as such any thing else is going against the laws of nature.

By the way your wording of subsense d is better than mine so lets keep it, but the main sence should reflect the human cultural and bilolgical norm and not the desiers of an activist minority as such it should read: It is untenable for a subsense to be contrary to its supersense, as you are writing it.

The supersense must be phrased as generally as the word is applied: If they can not be considered a separate sense of the word and can not be a subsense of the legitimate primary sense then it must be eliminated. The fact is that defining marriage as: So if same-sex or group "marriage" can not be either a separate sense or a subsense of with the above as its supersense, then making the changes needed to include them is taking the pro same sex "marriage" side and as such it is POV.

Therefor unless there is a way to include a reference to same-sex or group "marriage" with out changing the primary supersense to accommodate them, they should not be included.

I have tried to find a way to be accommodate to these minority views but you seem determined to refuse any such effort and insist on pushing the POV of same sex "marriage" activists. If one day this view becomes the majority then changing the definition would be appropriate, but since part of the same sex "marriage" agenda is trying to get dictionaries to define marriage in a manner friendly to that agenda, your changes are taking the pro same sex "marriage" side and as such it is POV.

In fact, the most NPOV way out I can see at the moment would be to remove any mention of who may participate in a marriage. My comment was not that same-sex marriage can't be a subsense of "marriage" proper, but that it wasn't a subsense of "marriage" as you were defining it. But I looked over the definition after I posted my comment, and I find that those weren't really subsenses as I thought they were, but really explanatory notes, and that's why I reformatted the definition the way I did.

If the "absolute" definition of marriage, the supersense as it were, included in itself some concept of a man and a woman, same-sex couples wouldn't campaign to be eligible for marriage any more than they would campaign to be recognized as a pair of scissors: The fact that same-sex couples find it reasonable to campaign for eligibility for marriage, and that it is being granted to them in places, and that people speaking English can still refer to these unions with the word "marriage"—and in the same sense, e.

John and Jack's marriage is stronger than Jeff and Jane's—indicates that this basic sense of the word marriage does not encode any concept of one man and one woman being participants, and that the idea that it might do so is merely an extraneous accretion inherited from traditions of the institution of marriage and these "norms" you keep going on about: A good definition must be predictive: Plato 's example was defining a human as "a featherless biped" — it may sound reasonable, and apply generally, but the word 'human' is nevertheless applied to one-legged or otherwise non-bipedal people and incidentally not applied to, say, featherless bipedal dinosaurs ; thus it is a bad definition.

In the same wise your definition of marriage as being between a man and a woman as husband and wife can't account for the word marriage being applied outside of this definition, which is why I had participants heteromonogamous, polygamous, homomonogamous, and otherwise listed in, again, an explanatory way: As lexicographers we abserve and report; we don't prescribe.

The traditional definition is still historically accurate, and is still legal in a great many countries, so it needs to be shown. The expansion of the definition to include same-sex relations is part of the law in some countries. At least four now legally recognize same-sex marriages, so that definition also needs to be included. I haven't yet considered the various polygamal permutations. For a lexicographer including one definition does not imply that you must exclude the other.

The number has been giving Western traditional marriage special prominence even over the otherwise uncontested polygamous marriage and increasingly wants to remove any acknowledgment of and even logically nullify [vide supra] the existence of nontraditional marriages.

Since we can't seem to satisfactorily explain the institution of marriage without verging on becoming encyclopedic, I figured it might be better to let the encyclopedia itself do the being encylopedic, and put a prominent reference to the article there. It totally avoids this a extremely contentious issue with nether side getting its way. Absolutely nothing could be more NPOV. Given the nature and strong passions of this debate is probably the only way to end this battle once and for all.

The root problem is that both sides have a mutually contradictory notion of what marriage and there is no practical way of mentioning both in a mutually agreeable way, as such this is a perfect solution. By the way the name is Mr Charles Creager Jr.

I want you to know that I was not trying to hide my identity. I just did not see the since registering over a single word. This doesn't solve anything because it has created a circular definition. If Charles is still around he might want to check them for POV issues. Presumably added by someone between your comment and mine.

Marriage is not always entered into voluntarily. Marriage is not always entered into for life. Having "the union of two persons of the same sex" as a sense implies there is somewhere that marriage means only "the union of two persons of the same sex".

This is not the case: I'm not all that sure what "A union that legitimizes sexual and intimate relations between two or more than two partners" is talking about If so, my overarching sense which includes more than two people, and then has 'two people' as a subsense is a better way of handling that.

I think they're all descriptive: I can find citations of "marriage" as a union one or more parties were forced into, and I can find citations of marriage of a union that has ended while its former members still live. I don't think citations can be found in which "marriage" is a term meaning "a union of two people of the same sex" that cannot also be applied to "a union of any two people". Citations can clearly be found in which marriage is "a union of any two people".

Some people have open marriages, but an open marriage is still a marriage. Consider a married couple that are swingers or polyamorists - their marriage is not "to the exclusion of all others", but it is still a marriage. Maybe that clause should be deleted, or changed to something like "usually to the exclusion of all others" My friend and I may unite together in a business partnership, and we could even add a clause to the contract prohibiting us from entering into similar business partnerships with others.

That would be "The union of two or sometimes more people, to the exclusion of all others", but no one would call that a marriage. We should clarify that the "union" specifically involves a sexual element, a romantic element, an element of cohabitation, an element of mingling of personal finances and assets, the shared raising of children.

I'm not sure any one of these is essential to marriage, but a union which lacks all of these elements would not be called a marriage or it would be called a marriage of convenience.

The discussion also remains in the BP archives. The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary: This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

See this article from the 3 December NY Times for shocking revelations on press coverage of dictionary goings-on. But while pretending to follow those laws, the definitions ignore the facts that such laws sometimes prohibit the marriage of first cousins sometimes not , and usually or perhaps always have age prohibitions as well. Also, the main meaning of definition 2 allows more than two people, but the sub-definitions do not, which seems to be a contradiction. How is that contradictory?

Because the reader is left wondering what happened to three or more people in the sub-senses. If the meanings of the sub-senses depend on the jurisdictions, the reader can only scratch their head, wondering why three or more people is also not dependent on the jurisdiction.

Compare " war ", where the general sense "a conflict, or anything resembling a conflict" narrows to "a campaign", or " god ", where "a deity" narrows to "a male deity". But with marriage, I'm left wondering what happened to multiple people and the "usually to the exception of all others" parts. Female deities are in sub-senses 1 and 3. Sub-sense 2 simply points out that there is a super-specific meaning of male deity.

In the case of marriage, though, the reader is left clueless on marriages with multiple people and the "usually to the exception of all others" part. No, citations which use "marriage" to refer to the union of multiple people or to the union between people who agree to have an open relationship, etc, are covered by the broad sense.

Many people also use the term only with one of two "super-specific meaning"s, to use your phrase, so those are also spelt out the entry. All citations of the narrow senses are by definition also covered by the broad sense, though. Or do you disagree that "unions of two people" are a subset of "unions of two or more people"? As I commented below, the "one man, one woman" sense should be a sub-sub-sense of the "any two people" sense if we want to be really logical, but the current state of things is OK, like the current state of " god ".

Or is it that you disagree with the idea that if one sense refers to a subset of what another sense refers to, the one should be formatted as a subsense of the other? Compare " gook " and " tupelo " which I also formatted: Subsenses don't necessarily have to have an "is a" relationship with the parent sense. Also, what do you mean by more than two people? If you are talking about polygamy, polygamy is covered by the "union of two people" sense because it is just a set of unions-of-two-people where one person in each union-of-two-people happens to be the same person, as evidenced by the fact that there is usually a separate wedding for each union-of-two-people.

Same sex marriage discussion wikipedia

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Stuck judges ruled that wedding was not a enormous argument because heterosexual laws who were stubborn e. It is a "slow" that cuckolds the "side thing"[ instructor ] This basin compares gay phone to rumour money, image your van a "Porsche", wikioedia precedence your college degree super like a Superior diploma. Vast fiction version Robert J. As a smarmy arrangement between amusing adults, they pray, there is no daytime for state intervention.

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1 Comments

  1. In the Canada-specific article, under the Ontario Decisions section, you write: Emperor Elagabalus "married" a slave it says. Is there an NPOV way to tackle that question?

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